Dual Yielding

[Grimm]

http://www.haunted-memories.net/wiki/Vampire/House_Rules/Dual_Yielding

I would like to ask staff to review this devotion.

It is stupidly overpowered for a 10 XP devotion. It gives you two things that I think Protean 2 should not be able to do:

A. The ability to give all the utility of Protean 2 (protection etc) to another person who does not possess Protean

And more egregiously

B. The ability to autokill any nonvampire after achieving a grapple. As written, the devotion lets you put someone inside the ground if you manage to achieve a grapple. Spend enough time there, and any nonvampire will soon expire due to suffocation.

So. As written, this devotion is imo unacceptable.

[Arkandel]

I agree to the second point. For a successful grapple and 10 exps, the ability to kill anyone who lacks teleportation and needs to breathe, it's a bit excessive.

[Fry]

I don't actually follow how Resilience and Protean gives someone the ability to transfer a power. Is there any other devotion in the game that allows a vampire to transfer a discipline to someone else?

[Grimm]

I agree with Fry. Which is why I noted that both of the things that this 10 XP power gives you are stupidly overpowered.

Hence, I don't even agree that the purpose of this devotion is in line with the rest of the game. IMO it should just be scrapped.

[Morrigan]

And on top of that, no roll required just makes this a sort of must-have. I mean, the grapple roll, yeah, but those are the easiest sorts of combat rolls to make. Take that into account with the other points mentioned, and this is just all-too-good for 10xp.

[Fry]

Someone appears to have updated the wiki page to say you can't suffocate.

Protean and Resilience are both passive powers, too.

[Grimm]

This still means you can forcefully hold a non vampire for a long time, with just a grapple roll.

This power is stupid. Protean 2 should not be a combat power, and it should not be applicable to other people. As both res and prot are clan discs of gangrel and there are, what, 15 gangrel on grid? This is gonna be a MAJOR CHANGE in the game.

Not to mention the fact that with Flow Within (or whatever that is) Protean 2 already has amazing utility. I just find no justification or point for giving Prot 2 such a strong power.

Srsly. Please reconsider.

[Syn]

Okay, I have to agree.  This seems horribly overpowered for 10 xp.  Even just the fact that it allows two separate powers of equal level seems a bit much.  I'd love to get a Contract or Gift that gives my character two separate powers of the same level, but so far as I know, there aren't any.

My suggestion, either make it harder for the vampire to take an unwilling passenger (since grapples are notoriously easy to obtain, especially to a character able to obtain Vigor), or drop the unwilling part altogether.  Honestly, I'd rather see one or the other power gone completely, but I'm sure there would be an outcry over it.

But seriously, for the Discipline levels needed to obtain this Devotion, and the xp spent to obtain it, it just seems to be too much.

[Lilith]

You should see it's big brother, then:  Yielding Soil (Night Horrors: Immortal Sinners, p. 126).  Yielding Soil does everything Dual Yielding does, PLUS the Flow Within Devotion on top of that -- while the price isn't listed, looking at Devotions of similar prerequisites indicates that it would be in the 12xp range.  Dual Yielding is actually a stripped-down version of that (as in the Flow Within aspect was removed), and is still roughly the same cost.

Mind you, this isn't making light of your concerns -- I made the addendum note when Theodore brought up, specifically noting that the other individual melds with the substance just like the Kindred does.  No auto-kill capability there, because both individuals, so far as I understand how Protean 2 works, literally meld into the substance in question, not the Kindred meld and the other person just be buried underneath whatever substance the Kindred is melding into.

I do want to note one thing, though, because the entire argument of this being a "combat power" is based on a fallacy:  any combat capability from this power is grossly outweighed by the disadvantages it gives in a potential combat setting.  Fine, I grapple someone and take them down into the ground with Dual Yielding.  Guess what?  I just removed myself from combat as well (and it makes little sense to just stay down there with another individual except in extreme circumstances), and more importantly, they come back up when I do (therein lies the fallacy of the whole "combat power" argument -- the assumption seems to be that the passenger for this power is left in the ground when the Devotion user comes back up again, despite the fact that the text for it specifically states that they aren't left in the ground when the Devotion user comes back up again).  This isn't the imprisonment spell from D&D, and was never meant to be, even by the write-up of Yielding Soil in Night Horrors.  That's also a part of the reason the Willpower cost is there:  to simulate that it is more difficult to initiate this power than it is to simply sink into the ground with Haven of Soil (which is only a single Vitae).

That said, this power does have use:  a prime example is the frenzied vampire that needs to be removed from an area before it's called a Masquerade breach, long enough for the frenzy to subside (since frenzy is a scene in duration).  This devotion is a specific application of Protean 2, not a combat power the way it's being made out to be here.  As I said, if the wording of it isn't clear, I'll make a note of it.

[Corius]

That said, this power does have use:  a prime example is the frenzied vampire that needs to be removed from an area before it's called a Masquerade breach, long enough for the frenzy to subside (since frenzy is a scene in duration).

So.. in order to prevent a Masquerade breach, vampires can breach the Masquerade? As instantly being sucked into the ground is certainly not going to cause suspicion. Unlike obfuscate which V:tR distinctly states would be rationalized other than disappearing or reappearing in mid-air, Protean does not have that rationality. Any mortal observers to this act would cause a Masq breach.

IMO, this devotion should not be implemented. 

[Zombie]

That said, this power does have use:  a prime example is the frenzied vampire that needs to be removed from an area before it's called a Masquerade breach, long enough for the frenzy to subside (since frenzy is a scene in duration).

So.. in order to prevent a Masquerade breach, vampires can breach the Masquerade? As instantly being sucked into the ground is certainly not going to cause suspicion. Unlike obfuscate which V:tR distinctly states would be rationalized other than disappearing or reappearing in mid-air, Protean does not have that rationality. Any mortal observers to this act would cause a Masq breach.

IMO, this devotion should not be implemented. 

If a vampire rage frenzies and starts ripping other vampires apart in a place away from the herd, generally it's a good idea to stop them before they get to a more populated area. Lilith explained that it's not really a combat sort of power, so I needn't repeat that bit - but I think that this devotion isn't terribly overpowered if you think about it what it really does. If someone sucks your friend into the ground, I'd think you can just disturb the ground a'la protean 2 and get them out anyways.

I don't actually follow how Resilience and Protean gives someone the ability to transfer a power. Is there any other devotion in the game that allows a vampire to transfer a discipline to someone else?

The Hounds of Blood Devotion from the Ventrue uses Resilience and bestows a power upon animals, and the other devotion with resilience and dominate also transfers a power to another. I believe there are others that do this too.

[Fry]

I still wish to know why it's considered reasonable to allow folks to transfer a discipline to someone else by buying up Resilience 2. I, for one, consider that, alone, to be hugely overpowered.

I also find it somewhat odd that the power doesn't allow a resisted check at all, save for "try to get out of the grapple" which isn't what I would consider resisted or contested. Stamina + Potency would make it far more reasonable. And also there should be some sort of amount-of-time maximum like rounds equal to Stamina + Potency of the user.

[Grimm]

Both devotions are completely useless on this MUSH (re hounds of blood etc). I mean, look at that devotion. It is absolutely worthless. And it does not bestow any discipline on the beast: what it does is make it (in theory) a remote hunter. It might be marginally useful on like the scottish moors or something, but a blood drinking hound roaming around Vienna is just a pointless masque breach. Even my char, locked in his house, would never use it. As I recall, the other power you are referring to was something rather similar.

Also, a reference to an upgunned version in one of the vamp splats is hardly relevant, unless that devotion is on use on the MUSH. It does prove that white wolf can write equally, or even more broken stuff, but that's hardly the point, is it? It is up to MUSHes and TT games to choose which devotions to implement, and to exercise judgement in leaving out broken ones. Hence, if you leave something out as broken, it's not really a good point of comparison.

[Lilith]

Nor can it be called "broken" when it's never been requested for consideration to be implemented.  I just checked -- no one has ever requested Yielding Soil to be considered for implementation.  So, as far as it goes, it's still a viable comparison to make.

The idea behind this devotion, when it was put forward for consideration, was to allow people with Protean to be able to bring someone with them for Haven of Soil.  It was intended to be a safeguard in case someone with the Devotion and another Kindred were caught in the open near sunrise with no means of otherwise escaping.  It was mentioned that it could be used for stopping a frenzied vampire -- yes, it would be a Masq breach if the Devotion user did it out in the open, but the idea was for it to be done away from prying mortal eyes.

That's why I have upraised eyebrows at "Oh, it's a combat power, no one should have it, it's broken!" mentality that's automatically come out in this thread.  If it was a combat power, it's a poor one for the fact that you can't leave them down in the ground when you come back up -- they come back up as well automatically; never mind the fact that using it in combat means you remove yourself from combat as well, and to keep someone melded indefinitely means sacrificing your character to do it.  I never saw any auto-kill ability that was touted initially as being inherent in the Devotion for the reason that common sense dictates the Kindred literally blends into the substance when enacting Protean 2 -- common sense also dictates that the same would happen to the passenger, that they also blend into the substance in question, when this Devotion is used.

[Fry]

If you think it's not a concern, then just remove the combat ability. Say it doesn't work except on willing participants.

Even then, I'd suggest raising the cost. Being able to TRANSFER A DISCIPLINE to someone doesn't exist anywhere else except with Obfuscate 5, to my knowledge. I'd make this devotion cost 15 or 20 XP, and require more Protean and Resilience, although it's still unclear to me how a discipline makes you tougher also allows you to transfer a discipline to another player.